(podcast) Quiet Lovers of Justice

A Conversation with Si Kahn

On this episode of What Dreamers Do, we catch up with Si Kahn, an activist, author, playwright, organizer, and singer-songwriter known for his powerful songs and lifelong engagement in labor issues, human rights, and environmental concerns. The conversation covers his experiences in the labor movement as an organizer, and his engagement as a folk singer focused on writing songs for and about real people with real stories. 

Si shares his insights into the world of social justice actions (musical and otherwise) and offers some golden advice on how to keep going during times when political situations make us feel despair and hopelessness. 

We also learn more about the host’s own experiences with activism and social change, and how she’s used music and dance to create solidarity and community. The episode ends with a discussion about how the energy we carry in our hearts has the power to help heal the world, and that carrying signs and protesting are the only ways to effect change.

Some key subjects shared by Si:

• his thoughts about how to keep going during trying times 
• his experiences in the labor and organizing movements 
• the importance of supporting Indigenous-led environmental movements 
• the use of artistic platforms platforms to amplify marginalized voices  

Links:
Si Kahn’s Website

Creative Community Organizing: A Guide for Rabble-Rousers, Activists, and Quiet Lovers of Justice by Si Kahn

“If” by Rudyard Kipling (poem)

Transcript

Welcome to the what dreamers do podcast. I’m your host Carla Govan and Appalachian musician flatfoot dancer, Mama creative and dreamer from Kentucky. I’m on a mission to inspire others to realize their dreams and live their most creative lives. Grab your mason jar full of sweet tea or something a little stronger, and pull up a chair, because it’s time to get your dream off that’s what dreamers do All right, so I’ll just say, I am sitting here having coffee while I’m having coffee. I don’t know what he’s having with my old friend, Mr. Tsai, con. song writer extraordinaire, many other accolades, but I’ll just leave it at that for now. I’m so happy to be here talking with you. Oh, you’re gonna say? I mean, I wasn’t prepared. You’re just gonna say I write songs. This is impromptu. Okay, we’re off the cuff today. We’re just inviting people in on our coffee chat. Would you like to brag on yourself? Sir? No, I don’t do that. I’m a professional, civil rights union community organizer with bad laryngitis this morning. And we stay at the background, who don’t lead, we don’t get out front. We lift other people up, we make sure they get the credit. There’s a lot of things I have done in this world. And no one will ever know that I was with the one that got them started. Well, that’s a beautiful philosophy. And I think that your songs are one of the awesome ways that you do that work, one of the most powerful ways that you do that work. But one thing I wanted to ask you this is what’s been on my mind. And so I’m just going to ask it. First off, you know, I’m I was born in 1972. And some of the legislative hijacks that have been going on lately, are the most alarming thing that I’ve seen in my lifetime. And I’m not sure how to respond. I know a lot of people feel really hopeless and powerless to fight like the big corporate government machine. That seems to be ramming everything through. That’s all dressed up in, you know, some sort of religious coding. have you faced times that seemed this dire? And if so, what, what have you done in the face of it? Well, first, I completely understand how people are feeling. It’s a tough time. But if least, my sense is that history in this country runs and regular cycles. You know, a friend of mine just said, this is the worst time in this country’s history. You know what, it doesn’t even come close, doesn’t even come close. You’re talking about slavery. You’re talking about the deliberate extermination of indigenous nations, talking about lynching, talking about the the vigilante movements against the left gets the imprisonment of all dissidents, you’re talking about deportations. And miraculously, and strategically, the people in this country, as the people in other countries, always organized, always fight back, and ultimately, at least so far, have always won. And I just think you just say, Well, I think it’s partly what you said that a lot of what’s happening is a deliberate attempt to tell people it’s hopeless. Just just it’s got to happen. You know, the ultra right has got to take over. Nothing you can do do about it. That is just a strategic move, to keep us from organizing, to keep us from raising our voices to keep us from fighting back. In fact, more of the people by a significant majority in this country. What a democracy. They want fairness. They want equity. They want the whole thing’s probably one of the probably I want to determine minority and Raisa law Let’s say an ad can convince the majority that is hopeless. So I’m like, that’s nice, guys. shut me up. Nice try, you’re not going to sit me down. You’re not going to convince me that it’s hopeless. You’re on the losing side. History is on our side. Now, it is two steps forward. And one step back. And, you know, you throw into the two step. Agent, right? Yeah, I’m just like, shut the fuck up. Well, I love that that’s a, that’s a more hopeful take, then you will hear coming to many different sides right now. And I like your two step metaphor, because I love to dance. And at this point, one of the things that I keep deciding and realizing is that I don’t always know what to do. But I know how to bring people together to make music and dance, and, and to create solidarity and to create community and connection and kinship. And to celebrate our shared humanity. I have this project I work on called Corbin tortillas, which you might have seen if you watched the recent special from the music to life organization I’m working with but that’s kind of where we just keep coming back to well, you know, it’s daunting, all of these forces of corporate fascist, greed and oppression that we’re fighting, but we’re just going to keep singing and dancing. Of course. Yeah. There’s a quote from John, I don’t know how to say more. Mer Mar, the great, I’m not exactly sure. So I don’t, he says something like, you know, while you’re fighting for the environment, take a little time to enjoy it. Go walk in the mountains, go. Fish in the creeks. Go watch the sunset, go admire the trees, so that I can promise you one thing, you will not only have deep satisfaction, you will outlive the bastards. Good philosophy is a great philosophy. And it relates to something that I have come to understand, you know, you always hear the was it Nelson Mandela that said Be the change you wish to see in the world? I think, at least he’s credited with it sometimes. Yeah. But I really, probably didn’t copyright it. But I have come to believe that just just the energy that we carry with us in our hearts, the vibration of joy, happiness, love, acceptance, compassion and kindness. It really it’s changing the world. Even if at that moment, we’re not marching, even if that moment, we’re not calling our legislator that that we’re spreading in the world. It’s it’s powerful. And we I think we sometimes discount it, because it seems so simple. And insignificant, possibly, but it’s not it might be it might be the most powerful thing that we as individuals can access, I’m not sure. What would you what advice would you give to somebody looking at this and trends with it? Oh, shaker him as a gift to the simple as I give them the free does a gift to come down where we ought to being and when we have come to a place just right. By turning by turning will be our delight. And I just think you got to keep on keeping on. You can’t. I’m not saying you can’t, you know, get discouraged. That’s that’s only realistic. You know, okay, the last time I saw some ASIC or the last time we met and continued seeing each other when we were working on her one woman musical about zero converting gold, precious memories. We were playing in Louisville together on now. The I forgot what it was the Rudyard Kipling. Right. I didn’t know about that. And I’m like, sort of said to the proprietor. Yeah. I have been hearing about this. I am so excited to be here. What are the shame of British imperialist coffeehouses out there? With Cecil Rhodes? As Winston Churchill, you know, and what am I? I love hiking, surf verbal jujitsu where you take something from them, throw it back at him, right. So there’s this poem by Rudyard Kipling that I can’t do the whole thing. But if you can stand your ground, when those around you are falling, then you will be a man, my son, somebody’s not me. I’m him up with a great parity, which I just love it. If you could stand your ground, with those about you are falling all around you, then you’re good to go now understand the situation. Right. So I just I just think, here’s one of the things I’ve learned a long time union organizer with a textile workers union, at the Bible Workers Union. There were many cabourg, organizing campaigns, when we were sure, we had lost, and we got together as an organizing tea, and said, Okay, clearly, this is a losing campaign. Let’s call a shift meeting, for after first shift tomorrow afternoon, who has to tell the workers remembers that we just can’t stay here, we’re gonna have to shut the union office. And maybe we can come back in four or five years. But let’s face it, we’ve lost at eight the morning, the plant manager called up and said, Okay, you guys when we’re ready to sign a contract? Wow. I’ve also been through campaigns, where he said, Oh, this one’s so easy. No way we could lose. And guess what? So to me, the lesson is that you never actually know whether you’re winning or losing. No matter how long you’ve been at it, no matter how savvy, shrewd in fact, no matter how skillful you are, you’d actually never know. So therefore, you should never give up. Now, you should take rest breaks. Like you said, Carla, you should dance. You should make love. You should spend time with your kids, your friends, your grandkids, you know, your grandpa or grandma. You know, just because we’re fighting for justice, doesn’t mean we can’t live good lives. And we don’t want to set that example. For other people young at all. We’re thinking yeah, maybe I should be an activist should be organized. We don’t want to lead such sacrificial law is that anybody want to be like us. I lead a deeply good life. I don’t remember who it was the second science just wonderful. How you have sacrificed yourself all your life for justice. And I said, Listen. I never sacrificed anything. I’ve agreed loud. I have a great life. I’ve had kids or grandkids. I’ve got a union pension. I’ve got Social Security, play music, I listen to music. You know, I’m not a good dancer, but every visit with my friends and I fight passionately for justice. You know, my father was a rabbi and he was the campus and community rabbi at Penn State during the great football years. Yeah, yeah. There this coach, you know, Jope Estrada, whatever, was probably whatever, you know. It wasn’t him was my older man who’s a working class kid who loved contact sports. And he had the direct line. When he came to town. They started winning what he left. They started losing. I’m just saying and pomp had this great sack. He was We call it shomer Shabbos. If you’ve watched Jordan Goodman, in the great Lebowski, you’ve heard him say that just means I keep the Sabbath religiously. And I want to ask Bob, because I’m not a profoundly secular, I’m profoundly gratefully Jewish in terms of the good politics, not the bad politics, every faith, every religion shares, they said, Did you find it hard to keep the Sabbath? And he said, Yes, I kept the Sabbath. But it’s even more true that the Sabbath kept me. The Sabbath kept me. Hello, this is how I feel about having been in the movement all my life. I’ve tried to keep the faith, I hope that I did. But the movement kept me it gave me a life of meaning. I don’t doubt that I tried hard to live a good life, and to work for justice. I’m not saying I always succeed, I know that I sometimes succeeded. But I am grateful to have been in this beautiful movement for justice, what Dr. King called the beloved community, by law, life is better for it. And I didn’t sacrifice a damn thing. Well, amen, I feel the same way. And even though, you know, my, my journey looks different than yours. I feel like I’ve been in this in this community of folk music and social change and social justice action. since I can remember growing up in the coal fields of Eastern Kentucky, and I feel so blessed and fortunate, mainly, but just the people, the inspiring people that that also never give up and continue to fight in their own ways. They write poems, they write books, I mainly hang out with a lot of artists, but I think it’s important to remember in this is kind of what you were saying, reminded me of it is that we all have to find our own way to engage with justice, and our, you know, fighting for our collective liberation is really what we’re talking about. But somebody who works in banking or finance might approach it very differently than somebody that is a folk singer, you know? Well, of course, you know, and one of the reasons that I’ve been helpful as a strategist in a number of corporate campaigns, is I’ve got friends who work for corporations, and I have friends who work for, you know, the agency that sell stocks and stuff. And a lot of them have been very happy, and link material to me that I could pass on. You know? Well, I know one thing, you know, I introduced you as a songwriter. And of course, I’m aware of your your deep history in connection with labor organize labor, organizing, and unions and, and that sort of thing. But for me, you know, as a songwriter, and especially because I grew up in Whitesburg with the Apple shop organization, and you had that early album with them. And so my first introduction to what you do, obviously, was as a songwriter and your powerful songs that are really in the voice of common people and reflecting the struggles of of common stuff, right? Yeah. I’m just wondering if you can think of an instance or two or just anything that you would care to share about a moment or a time when a song or music has really made a big shift or a big difference in the kinds of work that activism that you do whether your own song or someone else’s song. I mean, I’m sure there must be many. I’m putting you on the spot. You guys this is just like we are literally we made a coffee date. And then I was like, Hey, why don’t we record this as podcast? So this is our impromptu. riffing. riffing, didn’t put me on a spot is totally reasonable. Okay, all right. Visual. This is not a visual podcast, right? It’s it’s not so what does your shirt say? Musicians united to protect Bristol Bay. Right. Okay. Okay, so I’m trying to do a short version but myself since I was 21, and being Jewish short stories are not my strong point. Okay, so back in, I think 2010 I get an email that says, sigh You don’t know me, but I know your music. I’m a commercial fisherman in Bristol Bay, Alaska. You probably don’t know where that is. But give me a call. I’m curious enough to call the guy’s name is Dan Strickland. He’s been a commercial fisherman all his life. He’s also a funky, you know. I’ve found a letter later. He’s got a couple of margins much better than anything I’ve ever owned. But it’ll he fished in Cordova at the Exxon Valdez spill. Now, I am old enough to know that most of the things I remember most of the people I know and work with weren’t born yet. So I explain everything Excellent. All Valdez is an oil tanker that spilled oil, guess who belong to Exxon Valdez Right. and destroyed the commercial fishing and the fishing for subsistence headed Ken pushing for support in Cordova, probably for several lifetimes. There’s so much oil on the bottom that nothing can look at his family. All fish commercially moved to Bristol Bay. Bristol Bay is an inland ocean. In the southwest quarter of Alaska. He had a mansion, that necklace of islands called the illusions that stretches out towards Russia. By the way, Sarah Palin was wrong. You can’t see Russia from her living room. Got in her town. And but does she have a guess of some Fred Dan’s as I can’t see Russia. He got to get up on his chair. has heard Oh, look real safe. So I didn’t get up on it ever got to see Russia. So Bristol Bay is the source of the richest remaining wild fishery of wild sockeye salmon in the entire world. It’s sustainably managed. This last year, 90 million salmon. 90 billion salmon were caught in Bristol Bay, after sub 8 million were allowed to escape. So they could spawn and there would be 90 million next year. So a Canadian mining corporation decided 20 years ago, they wanted to build the world’s largest open pit gold and copper mine, right near the headwaters where the salmon spawn. There has never been that kind of line in the history of the world that individually destroy everything. Everything downstream. it from the beginning. Primarily the indigenous people of Alaska, Alaska’s 25 percentage, indigenous started fighting against the wind. So dad says he explains to me the great fight that brings together people who fight who fish commercially. People who fish for subsistence for survival, people who fish for sport, environmentalist, political leaders, and he says it’s a great campaign. But we don’t have a theme song is that if you will come to Alaska and write us a theme song. We’re not going to pay for this. And you’re gonna have to get yourself here. We will give you all luck. Or maybe your you can eat Greek for one, but yes, you don’t add all the smoked salmon you can eat straight to Jewish art. Right? So I went and oh it was a great song. Maggie May not not the Rod Stewart. But the word of the great time. Hi, I’m Tiffany Corby a, about a book called The Maggie Mae. He talks about this kid who was starts as a decade, it is an that day turned into 30 years, that phone call turned into a dozen years going back and forth to Alaska writing, not theme song, but an entire cycle of songs about the stroke to stop the mind of the native languages, cultures, ways of life, subsistence, the economy, the boats, the history, the culture, of this amazing part of the world. And so, Carla, I think of myself, in some parts of my songwriting as a musical journalist, as a translator, right. So I, I told Dan, and the only human being I knew in Alaska, zap middle of State Senator and bluegrass bandleader who I actually checked, called her up and said, Hey, this guy, dad or the level, I mean, you know, I’m not going to go there without your $1,000 That, of course, keep your eye any, you know, get what? She said, No, no, no, he’s great. You should call them. So I told him, You could, I will be your musical journalist, I won’t be your translator. But you have to introduce me to the people who told me a story that I listened to 60 different people. I said, you know, third grade classroom, what are the tests, my knees will never be the same. But I said to these Indigenous kids who were like 1011, and 12, I will be your best teacher. If you tell me what you believe people in the lower 48 need to know. I will try to get that message into a song. And when I’ve written it, I will send it back to your teacher. And she will sit down with you and you’ll listen again. And again. If I’ve got stuff, bro, you’ll tell me I’ll try to fix it. If I can’t fix it, we’ll just throw it out. So I wrote 30 songs that made an album as a fundraiser with the Anna Suzanne, Delta International Organization of musicians also wrote songs, who also contacted their fans and friends, because as musicians were in internal communication systems, you didn’t beautifully. You know, you said that your cornbread Express, you know, just before breakfast, you know, with so many good things to eat so many good things to smell and to taste. But you got a lot of people you could communicate with all of us, all of us musicians, and other artists were to were I don’t want them automatic communication system. So we use musicians united to get the word out in places where the word wasn’t getting. And I feel tested. The songs we had. Dan and Suzanne found two parts of Alaska. We are gathering city for their homeless, and I want to sing a song and then we will discuss it that I get to write that I get a raw is it something that needs to be changed? Does it make sense? So that was like the first step in giving the songs back to the people they were about? Because they’re not my songs. They’re my stories, or their songs or their stories. And I will tell you there was no fights. I have a song called Well, I can never remember the name on the lake. And I originally wrote it as a Cajun song and it was out in the swamp and then my friend John Wizner had just lost his father. So we changed it to an Upper Minnesota song. And then I rewrote it as a Bristol Bay song and there’s a line that said as I cast my as I passed my lower version of the early Okay, the next thing I know suddenly, Guy these are the guys who get into fights. God always says sigh You know real people who’ve Fish, we don’t use lores numbers. We don’t use lures, you know, please follow the bass was something that looks a little bit like a lapse and make a lot of noise. A real skill is in presenting a hand tied fly to a trout. So you got to change it, I guess my fly, go to the reward. All right, other side of the other side of the submarine who stands up? Hold on there, buddy. Looks like a fly. You’re done with anything like a fish doesn’t look like anything at all that takes ill can make a move and imitate the movement of a fish. That’s what a real person who fishes whose DISTR years is what we use. Going in, I’ve got my head over my face and thinking, How do I get into this? How do I get out of this, but I have to. So Suzanne littles husband, Bob Owens, who’s the Assistant City, attorney, attorney, for Anchorage capital of Alaska. I’m sorry, Anchorage. Juneau, is the capital of last year I’ve even got a song about that. I got, I got to talk about everything, you know, a long time we got to do. Bob says, gentlemen, he says gentlemen, I think we need to find a compromise position here. Oh, when you use that fly, when you attach it to his barbed obedient attire auto line? And that lawyers? Are you tie it on to? Bob, everybody knows, you tie and work on Twitter, Linus turtleman. I believe we have a solution. sigh How would you feel? As I cast my line, towards the early morning, that’s how I recorded it. Right? That’s consensus building right there. That’s consensus building Exactly. Reminds wringing my hands. So and then, since then, I took it all over the state. Right. We played in schools, with their band food for the soul, sometimes just the two of us. We played at gatherings when people were fished. We were hosted by indigenous leaders. You know, when we when I like my, I think my fav was right before the salmon season open, that everybody was fighting. And yet, you know, we’re settling for the torture to get a new sub Upper New rings for the for their VA maritime engine. And we are there outside the the maritime supply store, you know, with our amps, and with a young woman who has registered people to vote, and they’re like, Hey, guys, I’m sorry, I don’t have time to listen was like, Well, I know that just registered a vote. Okay, I can do that. Now. I gotta go. So I think it’ll be integrated interviews on the radio. We showed up. So I think, you know, when people say, Well, you guys, sure one, that one? I’m like, No, actually, we were not at the front of the fight. We’re in the back of the fight. We were maybe 1% One and a half percent of the victory. But victories are won by tiny mark. And it is just true that every vote counts. And it’s just true, that there are no small jobs in a movement for justice. Well, I like that story for a lot of reasons. But also, because I think it it points to the fact that really worldwide that a lot of the environmental movements are being led by indigenous peoples do, you know in Brazil and in South America, because, you know, in some cases still they’re the ones that live most closely with the land and sea and are affected by most immediately the the devastation that can occur when unchecked industry is allowed to do whatever it wants to our natural system. So I think it’s a great thing to you know, as a songwriter or as a, you know, person with white privilege or whatever, or as a person with resources to throw our efforts many times Behind already existing movements, instead of feeling like that, we’ve got to start from scratch. And that’s, that’s one thing I’ve learned in working with, with the Latin X communities here in Kentucky is just I feel like part of my job is creating, helping to create stages and experiences where I can amplify voices. And we, and we have a podium. We do. So yeah. So I have been married for 40 something years. To Elizabeth medic was a philosopher. I know you’re a bootstrap philosopher. Yeah. You know, the headless myth has multiple Heritage’s, including Appalachian. Um, and one of the things, one of the many things that I’ve learned from her is that we actually don’t know how many things we’ve stopped. Right? We know that some of them, but we don’t know how many wars never happened. We don’t know how many atrocities never took place. We don’t know how many environments were preserved. Because of our work. She says that I believe we’ve been far more successful than we’ll ever know. Because often, the people on the other side, I don’t mean to generalize, but the evil people think, oh, and we might, one time our youngest son gave, named after my grandfather was about two years old. And Elizabeth and Gabe and I were walking through the woods. And Elizabeth, who was tall and strong, and looks like where she came from, or at least part of her family came from she looks mildly tripped over wound, and fell. Totally uncharacteristic. And Gabe said, I didn’t know the people fell down. Another time, Gabe, and I used to wrestle at night, and I had pulled some muscle. And I said, Honey, I just can’t hurt too bad. And Elizabeth said, Well, I’ll wrestle with you. And he said, Oh, I’m wrestling with you know, you’re a big woman. Right? Okay, maybe there’s some gender bias in there, or maybe not. But I think oftentimes, the people who want to do devastating things, look at us and say, Now, we wouldn’t be wise to take them on. Wouldn’t be wise to take them on. They’ve got a history. They’ve got courage, they’ve got strength, they’ve got smart, and they’re going to organize in a heartbeat. That’s gonna hurt us. It’s gonna hurt us. So let’s just, let’s just do it somewhere else. And I know think, I think Elizabeth’s point, as we never see that. We don’t know that. But I think she’s right. Oh, I love it. Because I’ve since I was a child, I’ve always been obsessed with. Those, indeed, were those places in history, those moments, those stories that you read about where you can see that one individual really made a difference, you know, Rosa Parks or somebody like that. I’ve always loved those kinds of stories. And that’s kind of what you’re what you’re talking about is just this. This idea that we never know, when there’s been some kind of critical CUSP or nexus point exactly that that was that came down in the in the side of, you know, best outcomes for all concerned that we played a part in and we don’t know and we’ll we’ll never know. Exactly, exactly. But the fact that we’ll never know should not discourage us. Right, I’m going to add professional troublemaker to the, to my tagline. I think that’s kind of what we’re talking about. Right? Yeah. Well, you know, I just feel like another Elizabeth story. You’ll get lots of them. So I wrote this book about, I’ve written a bunch of books, but organizing, and then most of the model four, I think the second one was the Better Homes and Gardens cookbook, in order Big ticket. You can? Yeah, well, you get its plus with it, I actually have four editions going back 50 years, because the recipes keep changing. So as you go in the back, it’s like, oh, cauliflower. How do you prepare cauliflower? And then you that sends you to the recipe page. And it says, first you do this, right? So I wrote all these step by step, organizing handbooks. And I thought, no, that’s actually not how I help people learn how to organize, for power for change. I sort of turn them back on their own experiences. Anybody who’s raised three kids is a natural organizer. You just have to take that experience and translate it to a different arena. And I don’t tell people that stuff. I tell stories, I think songs, right? Not exclusively, sometimes you just have to say your words like this. So the next book I wrote on organizing was just stories from the road. Right? And highest, I believe, that when you are an organizer, you think like an organizer in that corner of your life, especially if you’re a musician, he hears songs differently. Most people hear that. So I told all these stories, including all the songs, and because I do things as an organizer, I wrote about 75 of my friends across a really wide range of things. They do, said, here’s a description of a book I’ve just printed. I need a title and a subtitle. What do you think? So, the quite wonderful artist, musician, Marla lean, and her mother stayed up all night and came up with creative community organizing. The great blues musician, Scott Ainsley, who almost always tours with an African American partner, came up with a guide for rabble rousers and actors. Right? So they okay, it’s a great community organizing, good title. A Guide for rabble rousers. Napoles good some title. So I opened a little folder to go with a sharpie, got a Sharpie, Sharpie, as I call it a Sharpie. And I wrote creative community organizing in big letters. And then underneath it so much smaller but still legible letters. I wrote a guide for rabble rousers and activists that knocked on the door for this this home office should come on in as she has a you know, trying to get a title for my book. What do you think of this that I held it up? And she said, it’s wonderful. And what about all of our all of us? Wyatt, lovers of justice. So that became the title, right? creative community organizing a guide for rabble rousers, activists, and quiet lovers of justice. I will say, well, Elizabeth happens to be a superb organizer. And while she is sometimes the quiet lover of justice, sometimes she’s a very eloquent organizer for justice, lover of justice. So yeah, so I think that’s the role that all of us artists play. Because I think we help people learn both from experience and from their experience. And I think that’s something that actually works. Yeah, well, I love that title. So I’m excited to read that because it’s still available. Is it still in print? Soon your inbox? That’s the one you sent me. Okay. So I mean, several things that like you want a real quality paperback, you It who thinks that’s an order form? Okay, well, I’m going to share that with my listeners as well, if that’s okay. Sure, why didn’t you? With my listeners on my podcast? I’ll share the information about how they can, you know, read, listen and read. Is it okay if I share it? Or there’s okay, I can edit this part out. But whatever you want me to share? I’ll share. I can’t. I can only give away so many free copies before my publisher finds out. Oh, sure. Well, we can I can just put a link to it. That’s fine. That’s no problem. Yeah. Yeah. Mostly put up, you can certainly share the electronic cup of coffee with anybody that you want to have it. Because I didn’t know you’re going to do that. I didn’t know I was going to do it either. But I will i What I’ll do is I’ll just share, I want people that are listening to be able to have a way that they can work this out. Okay. I’ve got something. Wow, what 11? Okay, so much subtler to keep talking. You know, Hey, so, this is wonderful. Really wonderful. Yeah, it’s been so great to catch up. I feel like we’ve just barely scratched the surface. And hang on just a second. There was one more like one more thing in closing. What I’m thinking is, you scratch the surface of my dining room table. scratch the surface of your dining. Oh, you should see my dining room table. It’s kind of deliberately scratch because of all the kids artwork and everything. It’s just right, right. It’s super scratch. We got a new one. Hey, so this was wonderful. We will continue. Okay, well, it’s been so great to talk to you today. And I’m gonna put a link where people can go read more about you and listen, and hopefully we can just do it again soon. It’s so wonderful to reconnect. Oh, no, we have to do it again. Okay. All right. Well, you have a great day. All right, you gotta take care of me Well, okay. Bye bye. This episode of What dreamers do is sponsored by the online Appalachian flat filling and clogging Academy, the only course of its kind and the most comprehensive step by step program available for dancers learning this style. I teach beginning and intermediate students the steps and skills they need to dance to traditional mountain music so that they can be confident joyful dancers and improvisers unlike others who just teach the same handful of steps or who just teach routines. I give you not only a bountiful library of steps, but a framework for understanding how the steps fit together with the music. Learn more about the academy and get started for free with my video tutorial. The three essential steps for Appalachian flat filling and clogging. Visit www.karlovo.com Today is the Infinity contain me T ‘s